Curse

GreatLich · Jun 08, 2007, 03:53 PM // 15:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by kvndoom

Energy management as a primary attribute was, is, and always will be a bad idea. The Bunny Thumper was born out of the Ranger's ability to spam energy-based warrior skills that a warrior wouldn't be able to upkeep. N/Rt spirit spammers, they speak for themselves... The A/R Critical Barrager... Paragons in general. Too many nerfs have come about because of Anet's inability to understand that your primary should provide utility, not energy.

Anet seems to think otherwise, given that all but two of the primaries are about energy.

Quote:

Divine Favor tops off healing. Energy Storage makes ridiculously expensive spells affordable (energy storage is not e-management, that argument has been beaten to death already many times).

My apologies to the dead horse then: care to enlighten me? Maybe a different usage of the term "management"?

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Strength adds a little extra damage (not a good attribute, but oh well). Fast Casting is self explanatory. Those I consider balanced Primaries.

Incidently the only two primaries not about energy, showing mostly a dislike for e-managing primaries. Strength is meh at best, a place to put leftover points unless the build requires a skill from the line.

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Expertise wouldn't have been too bad off if it was limited primarily to Ranger skills, since a lot of traps/etc are prohibitively expensive for other classes.

I'm in total disagreement. Limiting primaries to primary skills breaks the entire second profession mechanic. Ofcourse you're only talking about Expertise now, but if you extend the proposition to the others it becomes silly... Ranger don't rely on their secondaries much anyway, why reduce the incentive more?

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In a way it was similar to energy storage in that it kept certain skills viable only to primaries. Soul Reaping pre-nerf was always overpowered, but I agree with all that it didn't get fixed properly (and still isn't, apparently).

Agreed, it's a little better now tough

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But 3 of the 4 new classes have energy management built into their primaries. C'mon Anet, don't leave the poor Rits out! Make Spawning Power give you 1 energy per rank whenever you create a spirit! (EXTREME sarcasm there) Are they ever going to get a clue?

I'd consider Spawning Power e-managing... but probably the same arguments against e-storage means you wouldn't.

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Paragons need to be reworked completely. Give them 3 energy pips, reduce or eliminate the adrenaline dependency and skill costs, and rework their primary to do something else besides give energy. The PVE'er in me is still pretty ticked about Watch Yourself getting nerfed because of Paragon abuse. Wow, what if Warriors could get energy from using shouts or from scoring critical hits? Not that I'm proposing that (I'm not; warriors are balanced by being forced to use adrenaline which doesn't come if they don't hit something, and a warrior's only e-management options are a zealous weapon or Warrior's Endurance, which is an uber-gay skill).

I'm not sure it's the energy. It's the fact that more Paragons is better. In that regard it's like Iway, more W/R with pets is better. Necro/Rt spirit spam same; more is better. I'm thinking the solution will be of the same school of thought as what's been done with Soul Reaping: There needs to be some check, or cap on the amount of times these mechanics can trigger off of an event.
If that warrants a complete rework of the Paragon? Maybe, but a change is definetely needed...

Quote:

I've yet to use Spawning on a Rit other than a point dump, so here's to hoping some skill reworks come around to make it useful. I'm going back to bed.

Sleep well

moriz · Jun 08, 2007, 04:10 PM // 16:10

here's probably the best way to fix paragon's primary attribute:

for every non-paragon party member within earshot of your shout or chant, you gain x energy.

problem solved.

TheOneMephisto · Jun 08, 2007, 04:16 PM // 16:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreatLich

My apologies to the dead horse then: care to enlighten me? Maybe a different usage of the term "management"?

Energy storage has always not been considered energy management, mainly because max energy doesn't matter, it's energy regen vs energy use that matters in the long run. Energy storage can be a delaying measure if you're using more energy than your getting, but it will still run out in the long run. So basically, energy storage is more of a buffer than actual management. It can help when your pushing or falling back as a reserve, but it won't do anything to stop your energy from going down.

Divineshadows · Jun 08, 2007, 06:05 PM // 18:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreatLich

My apologies to the dead horse then: care to enlighten me? Maybe a different usage of the term "management"?

Energy storage should be an easy concept for Americans to grasp. Like credit cards with large credit limits, they allow longer short bursts (than other classes can achieve) of deficit spending where the outgoing rate exceeds the incoming rate. Energy storage helps you manage your energy about as well as credit cards help the average American manage their money.

Patccmoi · Jun 08, 2007, 06:43 PM // 18:43

Energy Storage is also in great part Exhaustion control. While an Ele can do massive pressure/utility for a short while using exhaustion spells (like chained gales, or Mind Shock, etc.), other classes would end up hitting 0-10 max E way too fast and would be sitting there useless for a good while.

It also helps making Eles strong skirmish characters since in a skirmish they have a big energy pool to use and it doesn't matter much if they empty it and spend 60s running a flag afterwards where they'll just regen back full.

But no, it's not emanagement. But i consider Divine Favor as a sort of emanagement too since it helps you heal less.

The one thing i agree though is that the primary attribute design of Dervish and Paragons are a little stupid. Paragons are able to have far too much energy, and while it wasn't done often, so can Dervish in a build based around it (for example, we used a D/Mo Healer's Boon healer before just like N/Mo because our build was chaining Aegis, OoP and DFury. The Dervish would gain 5E every 2-3s on average which was like having 10 pips of regen, and on top of that stuff like RoF would give him 5E so he ended up with really incredible emanagement).

Thomas.knbk · Jun 08, 2007, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Energy management provides you means to manage your energy (o rly?), which means they allow you to spend more energy without having more problems, which generally means it gives you more energy per second to spend. Because, obviously, the best way to spend more energy without getting into trouble is simply getting yourself more energy to spend. Energy Storage doesn't do this. In the long run, even if your maximum energy is 100, you will still only have 4 pips to spend, as opposed to when you'd run skills that actually provide you with energy.
Energy Storage does have energy management skills in it, (ether prodigy, GoLE), but its primary effect isn't energy management. It's a buffer so you don't grey out your entire bar if you use some exhausting skills.

EDIT:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mokone

- FAST CAST SIGNET REZMER (lol)

that could actually be pretty hot with signet of return

LouAl · Jun 08, 2007, 06:56 PM // 18:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

Energy storage should be an easy concept for Americans to grasp. Like credit cards with large credit limits, they allow longer short bursts (than other classes can achieve) of deficit spending where the outgoing rate exceeds the incoming rate. Energy storage helps you manage your energy about as well as credit cards help the average American manage their money.

yeah, cuz no one else uses credit cards (or loans for that matter)! I mean, I know you are being a bit sarcastic, but that is exactly what energy storage is used for (and helps against exhaustion). Having a bigger pool makes it so that when you use too much, you still have some left. And, when you use e-mgmt, you can use more powerful e-mgmt that isn't wasted because you have a higher cap. BTW, why do you care if you are not logged in and your passion is gone?

lord of shadow · Jun 08, 2007, 07:54 PM // 19:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

EDIT:

that could actually be pretty hot with signet of return

yeah... WOW i rezZehed my teamatehs really FaSt!

Isn't that them dead over there cause you ressed them with 5% health?

PHAIL.

death pact signet resmer is where it's at :P

TheOneMephisto · Jun 08, 2007, 07:57 PM // 19:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by LouAl

BTW, why do you care if you are not logged in and your passion is gone?

You're probably describing over half of the population that posts here and on other guild wars forums.

InfernalSuffering · Jun 09, 2007, 02:25 AM // 02:25

I would like to know what happens to Aggressive Refrain when Defensive Anthem gets Power Blocked.

*lemming* · Jun 09, 2007, 02:59 AM // 02:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by InfernalSuffering

I would like to know what happens to Aggressive Refrain when Defensive Anthem gets Power Blocked.

Watch Yourself and GftE are not leadership linked.

Div · Jun 09, 2007, 09:14 AM // 09:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

Energy storage should be an easy concept for Americans to grasp. Like credit cards with large credit limits, they allow longer short bursts (than other classes can achieve) of deficit spending where the outgoing rate exceeds the incoming rate. Energy storage helps you manage your energy about as well as credit cards help the average American manage their money.

I lol'ed IRL.

Expertise is the equivalent of having a 50% off coupon to wherever you go, which is an example of e-management.

Soul reaping is like your boss randomly deciding to give you bonuses on top of your weekly/monthly paychecks so that you can spend more money.

Divine favor is like having one of those "buy a house, get a free table+chairs set".

All of those 3 allow you to manage your money better, whereas having a large credit limit does absolutely nothing for managing your money...

Patrograd · Jun 09, 2007, 09:56 AM // 09:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

All of those 3 allow you to manage your money better, whereas having a large credit limit does absolutely nothing for managing your money...

Energy management = the skill of contunuing to do what you need to even when you have very little stored energy left, This can be build based (GoLE, Sig devo etc) weapon swaps, or selective skill usage. Most casters, including eles, spend the vast majority of battles operating off low stored energy values making energy management one of the key skills in the game to master.

Energy pool determines for how long you can go in the early stages of the battle or after a "pause" before you need to seriously worry about energy management. Eles have a big starting pool and efficient energy management tools to allow the frequent and consistent use of high value skills.